Kenny Klein: Tales Of The Rambling Wren.
Follow Kenny from the levees of New Orleans to the whirling chaos that is the Pagan festival circuit and beyond. Musings, rants, and just plain Pagan talk.
Talking Christo-Pagan Blues
Jesus Christ!
What I mean is: I just read the Blog “I Reject Jesus Christ” on Patheos, a good, well-written response to the multitude of Pagan bloggers writing about their vigorous love of Jesus in a “Pagan” context. (Also Jason Mankey's response).
Seriously?
There have been a rash of books the last couple of years that have furthered the notion of being “Christo-Pagan”: Llewellyn's Jesus Through Pagan Eyes: Bridging Neopagan Perspectives with a Progressive Vision of Christ andThree Rivers' The Jesus Mysteries: Was the "Original Jesus" a Pagan God? to name just a couple. More than that, there are the multitude of blogs and conversations I see and hear in the Pagan community about Jesus, monotheism, and very Christian ideologies, such as the issue of “modesty” in our community (something Blue Star Owl has been holding an ongoing discussion about in her blog. Also see this Blog, or this one). And speaking of conversations in the Pagan community, my last blog for this site was inspired by a Matthew Fox Creation Spirituality workshop at a festival meant to be a magical/Pagan event. This all got me thinking about the issue of “Christo-Paganism.”
The specter of the Jewish Carpenter has always loomed over the Pagan community. It is fair to say that few of us were raised Pagan: I can only think of a handful or 20-somethings and 30-somethings who were. Most modern Pagans were raised in their family's faith, and for most of us (though not for me), that faith was some form of Christianity. Throughout my own involvement with Paganism I've observed that if you put three Pagans in a room, they will end up talking about the Bible. The sad news is that while most Pagans are not as educated as they might be about Paganism, almost all will agree to bash the Bible and its precepts. This has always bothered me a great deal: as a Wiccan scholar, I believe in learning Paganism, rather than seeing Paganism as a way to shun or abhor Christianity. I do not wish to see Paganism as a community of people who simply want to piss off their parents.
But the discussion seems to have taken a much different turn of late. Instead of bashing the Bible, or agreeing that Christianity sucks, now the discussion seems more and more about bringing elements of Christianity into Pagan practice. From the morality of Christianity, like the virtue of being “modest,” to seeing “Jesus through Pagan eyes,” we seem to be a community looking for Christian values! See here, here, here, here and here for a examples that the Christo-Pagan “thing” is a hot topic right now! (Quoting one blogger: “Feel free to read My Dreams of a Church, a page on my website. It talks about my desire to build/create a Church with ChristoPagan beliefs; perhaps even a religion of it. No, not a cult; a religion and church. I hope you’ll find it an interesting read! =] Lady Cerridwen Brighid Morrigan”)
In one way, I'm seeing some terrific irony here. In order to convert Roman Europe, Christians of 300 AD had to adopt Pagan values: Jesus became a dying-reborn God, and Yule, Ostara and Imbolc were changed to Christmas, Easter and Brigit'smas/Candlemas. There's no way Jesus could have been born on December the 25th if shepherds were watching their flocks overnight: this is something done when ewes are about to give birth in April. And isn't it convenient that Jesus rose from the dead right as we celebrate the Goddess returning to earth to bring the spring? But now that Christianity is the reigning paradigm, and we are the fast-growing minority, we seem to be getting our clues from the cross-bearing masses. How the tables have turned.
But aside from this irony, there is a lot more to this issue, and there is much at stake for us as a community. Why are we having these discussions, and why now? One reason may be something I mentioned above: the rate at which the community is growing!
When I first came to Paganism, back in the late 70s (yes, I rode my dinosaur to my first ritual), Wicca or Wiccan-like traditions were the state of Paganism. If you were Pagan, you joined a coven, received what usually amounted to a focused, intense training, and were initiated as a Witch. While this lifestyle is not for everyone, and Wicca knows that full well and tries to discourage all but the stout-hearted from pursuing initiation, this meant that Pagans learned their religion and lived their religion every day, immersed in the Craft.
Things have changed a good deal since then. There are few initiatory Wiccans anymore, and many who call themselves Wiccan define this very differently than Gardner's definition, or mine (in my practice of the Craft, one cannot be 'of the Wicca' without an initiation: Cunningham created the notion that one may be Wiccan by self-initiating, an idea that did not exist as I first studied). Most Pagans today are 'eclectic,' and many fall into the category of 'undefined.' Many do not worship; they see the Goddesses and Gods of Paganism as archetypes or models of human experience. I meet more and more atheists at Pagan festivals than I ever have before. (In my day one did not seek out Paganism unless one literally believed in the Gods/Goddess of our religion). While I do not mean to denigrate any person's beliefs, what this has done is create a Pagan community with very little consensus of belief; anything goes, and fewer and fewer people who join the community feel they need to seek out learning and to follow established Pagan ways. I hear many people say “Paganism is whatever you want it to be.” While my purpose here is not to argue that (don't worry, I will in other posts), it certainly raises a good deal of confusion about what exactly Paganism actually is!
As our community grows larger and larger, and the definition of Pagan becomes more and more vague, we open ourselves up to all sorts of interpretation of what it means to be Pagan. We see more and people who say “everyone-is-everything” (see my last post). We also see more and more people come in to the community whose comfort level is Christian ideology and Christian values, even if their intellectual mind says “I reject Christianity.” Unlike the era when I came into Paganism, there are fewer and fewer people to teach new Pagans what it means to think like a Pagan, to live a Pagan life, to BE Pagan. So people fill in the gaps with their own ideals, and since Christianity has always been comfortable and familiar, many of the new ideals seeping into the community are Christian ones. Bringing us to the point where we are seriously using terms like Christo-Pagan.
What harm does this do to the Pagan community? Maybe none. Maybe it simply gives people one more option of a framework to fit their beliefs into. But for me, it is very harmful to the Pagan community and to our Pagan identity. We struggle every day to defend our religious freedoms, to define ourselves, and to create a sense of Pagan pride and unity. I still know many people who are afraid to “come out” as Pagan, to live as the people they truly are. We constantly live in the shadow of majority religions, both afraid of how they perceive us, and envious of their followers being able to proudly announce themselves. Only a strong, unified Pagan community that stands up for our rights will solve this issue, and not in a week or a year, but over decades of speaking out (in this way, we follow the example set by the GLBT community). If we are undecided, if we are namby-pamby, if our attitude is “I'm Pagan, but really I'm Christian,” how can we be taken seriously? How can we stand up for what we believe if the world cannot perceive what it is that we actually believe? If we cannot define what we actually believe?
Another danger I see is the danger of infiltration. A close friend of mine, who is a brilliant Pagan thinker, recently said to me “don't think for a moment there are not Christians at every Pagan festival pretending to be Pagan.” Now you may say “that is a paranoid delusion, Kenny Klein!” And I would totally agree, if I had not seen it for myself! Some of us remember the Eric Pryor debacle of the '90s. (See articles here, and here). Eric Pryor had been around the NYC Pagan scene for years, perhaps initiated at an early age by Herman Slater (while there are many great things Herman did, it is true that he would initiate very young boys that he was attracted to). Pryor spent a few years in the late 80s in a Texas jail, where he met anti-Pagan anti-Gay televangelist Larry Lea, who preached in the prisons there. In 1990 Pryor created a Pagan church in San Francisco, complete with a “priestess” who appeared out of seemingly nowhere. When Larry Lea held a publicized prayer session at SF's Civic Auditorium, Pryor held a protest, gathering many Pagans from the very political SF Pagan scene to join him. But on the first night of the protest, with cameras rolling, Pryor used his athame to “stab” a wax image of Lea. Then Lea himself came out of the 7,000 seat auditorium, walked directly up to Pryor, and invited him to “talk.” By the next day Pryor was a devout Christian, denouncing Pagans, and stating that “all Pagans carry guns and will shoot a Christian if they can.” Now I certainly don't think that every Christo-Pagan blogger is a potential Eric Pryor, but with the sudden rush of Christian thought in Paganism, the fact that the seed came from somewhere bears thought. Yes, call me paranoid; but people like Larry Lea and his ilk would and probably do put a lot of energy into confusing, disrupting and destroying our religious community.
Now don't get me wrong: I firmly believe that everyone should be on the path that is right for them. While I am a curmudgeonly Wiccan, as Blue Star Owl enjoys pointing out, I believe Wicca is a hard path, and not for everyone. I love and support my Asatru, Druid, Dianic and Helenic sisters and brothers. I support anyone who practices eclectic Paganism with scholarship and respect. We are Pagans together! And there are many venues for believers in monotheism who wish to have a broader definition of God/Jesus than the traditional one. Matthew Fox's Creation Spirituality is one of these. So are the Unitarian Universalist Church, and the Unity Church. There you can be Christian and believe in a nurturing female deity at the same time. But if that is your path, why call yourself Pagan? You're not!
Can a bridge between Paganism and Christianity be forged? Maybe. But I sadly shake my head: why forge one? Are you Pagan because you believe in our Gods? Are you Christian because you believe in Jesus? Can you not choose one or the other? Are you simply afraid to turn your back on the beliefs you were raised with?
For me, if you're going to be Pagan, if you're going to invest yourself in this community, where life is not always easy, where people have found a spiritual home after their honest search for their true beliefs, where our history is one of so many horrible deaths for our right to practice our worship (at the hands of “righteous” Christians), BE PAGAN! We do not hold Jesus as a God; we have much older Gods, whose power is real and present. If these Gods and Goddesses do not call to you, look elsewhere. There is a community out there for you. But I am a Pagan, and I love my Gods and Goddesses. And Jesus is not one of them.
Comments
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Friday, 03 August 2012
It was not my intention to be hurtful: in regards to Voodoo. Most practitioners I know do not feel comfortable being counted as Pagan. Jews who work with ancient Hebrew Paganism certainly are Pagan, and I do not discount them from my view of modern practitioners. I also believe I make it very clear that I have great respect for worshippers of Jesus; I simply don't see the blend of Christianity and Paganism as productive to the Pagan community; as I have said, there are many other very loving communities where this blend works.
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Friday, 03 August 2012"We do not hold Jesus as a god; we have much older gods whose power is real and present." Is it really necessary to denounce the gods of other religions in order to strengthen your own beliefs? If this is your summation of the beliefs of Pagans in general, please feel free to share your definition of Pagan as I am not privy to it. "I support anyone who practices eclectic Paganism with scholarship and respect. We are Pagans together! And there are many venues for believers in monotheism who wish to have a broader definition of God/Jesus than the traditional one. Matthew Fox's Creation Spirituality is one of these. So are the Unitarian Universalist Church, and the Unity Church. There you can be Christian and believe in a nurturing female deity at the same time. But if that is your path, why call yourself Pagan? You're not!" Correct me if I am mistaken, but you seem to be contradicting yourself. Do you truly believe that those who, for example, devote themselves to the God and Goddess by the names of Jesus and Mary Magdalene, can call themselves Pagan? Or would you reject them for clinging to the safety of their parents' religions? To shove Christianity and Paganism into boxes from which they cannot flow together or syncretize is, in my estimation, detrimental to both traditions. Consider for a moment the syncretization of the African orishas with the Catholic saints. When African slaves (and American Indians, for that matter) were forced to convert to Catholicism, they found multiple ways to blend the religions that lent new depth to both. In examining the sacrificial archetypes that populate world mythology, one can find similar elements in cultures separated by place and time: the sacrificial figure present as the Horned God descending into death for the winter, the death and rebirth of Dionysus, of Odin and of Inanna, and the resurrection of, yes, Jesus, among others. One could presume that each new religion stole from its predecessors in order to assimilate the general populace. But there are also archetypes that link cultures across the ages, wondrous and fascinating connections that suggest a world story being told by many different societies and cultures -- in essence, carried by the collective conscious, through the minds and mouths of storytellers and into our mythos. Could it be argued that Christians stole the garb of Yemaya in order to present the Virgin Mary, generations in the future, to Africans who were forced into slavery? You could, in a roundabout way, but that would strip of mystery the phenomenon that is syncretization. Getting back to the point, I suppose I don't understand your concept of separating Christianity from Paganism at threat of exclusion from both communities. It saddens me to see that Christopagans are excluded not only from their original circles as "woo-woo," but also from Pagan circles as pretenders.
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Saturday, 04 August 2012Ah, Kenny. I see so much of your point, but this is hardly new. "Christo-Paganism" has been a hot topic for over two decades; I should know, since our first article on this topic was in PanGaia #13, and the issue was already pretty hoary by then.
I used to call myself Christo-Pagan, for the rather obvious reason that I had (and still do) a devotional relationship with Jesus. I don't call myself that any more because I realized that our relationship didn't conform to any of the orthodox definitions of Christian, but he remains the only male deity who has ever spoken to me. Please forgive me if he's still (and perhaps always) the Dying/Rising Lord of the Dance in my Pagan soul. -
Saturday, 04 August 2012
This would be a much better read without all the judgmentalism about who is Wiccan, how it was in the old days etc.
Your point is interesting and current, you supporting material is old and dusty. These issues are not linked, why confuse the reader and attempt to establish a link?
You got to get over this Wicca thing, what ever you write about there it is. Time to move on or at least stop attempting to link the issue to EVERYTHING. -
Saturday, 04 August 2012
On another note: I did want to mention that we have "blended path" bloggers right here on PaganSquare and I defend their right to be here. (After all, I personally recruited them.)
There's one part of your post I find myself getting actually upset about: the veiled accusation that "not all Christo-Pagan bloggers are Christian infiltrators but that seed (Eric Pryor) had to come from somewhere." Surely that concept doesn't pass the most simple practical test: if a Christian infiltrator wanted to damage the Craft, surely s/he wouldn't tip hisr hand by coming out in favor of Jesus. Wouldn't any operative with half a grain of sense instead pose as a pure and orthodox Pagan?
Most Christo-Pagans (and many eschew that name as fundamentally flawed) I know are firmly in the crucifix closet because of facing precisely this kind of suspicion from their fellow Pagans. I've been fairly quiet on that account myself for the same reason, but I'd be an out-and-out coward if I let this particular statement stand without letting you know that you are accusing me, personally.
I surely don't mind if you, and Star Foster and the vast majority of other Pagans reject Jesus. After all, I'm a polytheist Pagan and I believe in your right to choose which deities to work with as a fundamental tenet of my faith. But accusing those of us whose hearts try to encompass the Jewish carpenter *and* the Goddess of being turncoats, betrayers, or even just "insufficiently Pagan" seems to embody the unforgiving and exclusionary principles which are the worst part of the Abrahamic monotheisms you reject. Irony, much? -
Saturday, 04 August 2012
I'm one of the bloggers that you mentioned in this post. (Er, actually, you've linked to me twice in a row in your "we seem to be a community looking for Christian values" paragraph.) Thank you for your thoughts on the matter of Christo-Paganism; I'll be coming back to this post and contemplating it for a while, I'm sure.
While I'm well aware that my blended form of spirituality is problematic in many ways (and that most of the actual problems are caused by the Christian part of it), it's also proven to be the most logical way for me to approach spirituality and the world as I see it at this point in time. That Jewish carpenter is by no means the only face in which I perceive the Divine, and although I do sing in a church choir (largely because the choirmaster is a friend of mine and because I've been able to do a fair amount of good in my community as part of that choir), by far, most of my attitudes and the ways in which I live my spiritual life are more Pagan in nature. I just don't tend to write about that quite as often as I write about the Christian bits because, frankly, the Pagan part of my approach to spirituality is less exasperating; it gives me far fewer problems to chew over.
Whether this will be my spiritual state for the rest of my life, or it's just a very long phase (my transition from Catholic to Pagan to Christo-Pagan started about sixteen or seventeen years ago when I started to realize that I couldn't in good conscience accept certain Roman Catholic teachings), deciding to define myself as a Christo-Pagan was a choice that I made after a lot of contemplation, and the decision was based on an attempt to reconcile both directions in which I felt I was being pulled.
Ultimately, I perceive Paganism and Christianity to be, if not totally compatible, then at least reasonably so. At their best, both paths (as I understand them, anyway) put a strong emphasis on making this world a better place, acting with compassion, caring for the planet, and taking care of each other, and that so many Christians seem dead set on ignoring these parts of their own religion and instead use their faith as an excuse to be hateful and destructive is a source of great consternation for me.
It certainly isn't my intention to bring harm to the Pagan community in general, or to any specific section of it, either. I'm truly sorry if I am doing something that's harmful. But the path that I'm following now really does inspire me to act more kindly, thoughtfully, and compassionately than Christianity or Paganism inspired me to be on their own. I find worth in that, though I don't expect everyone else to. It's just what's working for me at this point in time. So I generally keep quiet, blogging aside (offline, I'm only "out" to a handful of trusted friends, four of whom are Pagans themselves, and one of whom is an Agnostic), and act as my conscience guides me to. Maybe it won't always be enough, but for now, it's working. -
Monday, 06 August 2012
I want to thank everyone for your input. I know this is a complex and difficult subject, and while I do respect most syncretic blends, this one seems to have ramifications different than any other. In thinking about the post and the ensuing comments for several days, I feel like my objections are more about the effect Christianity has had on Paganism for the last 2000 years than on the figure of Jesus himself (though I will probably always see Jesus as the prophet of the Bible, rather than as a dying/reborn God as many who have commented see him; remember that my ancestors have rejected Jesus the Biblical prophet for 2000 years, and have suffered a good deal of prejudice and violence for this rejection). And @ cprsource, I am curmudgeonly, and will always see all Pagan subjects from a Wiccan viewpoint. I respect all Pagan paths, but Wicca is my path.
In the post above I linked Jason Mankey's excellent article on why Jason cannot reject Jesus, and I recommend reading it for a completely antithetical viewpoint by someone whose opinion I always respect and consider. -
Monday, 06 August 2012
Thank you for your gracious response to the reactions of all of us regarding this issue.
Blessed Be,
Anne -
Thursday, 09 August 2012
As born and raised Christian, I was initially curious about the Christo-Pagan concept. For several years between dropping my Christian faith practices to adopting Wiccan spirituality, I did not completely turn away from Jesus, whom I considered to be a prophet but not necessarily the Son of God.
It was of course, the Goddess(s) who drew me to my Wiccan conversion (I am an initiated witch) and in early years I was all but ignoring the God(s). That changed when I began my formal studies of the craft under the wise tutelage of a High Priestess who honors both Godess and God as (in my opinion) must be done if one is to embrace the complete mythology of birth, death, rebirth . . . or even the balance repeated in all of nature.
Something Anne said in her comments here, resonated with me - though I don't consider myself a Christo-Pagan, I too, still identify with Jesus as the strongest male god influence in my life.
In response to the whole debate - it brings to mind the early splits in the Christian religion. I'll speak here of what I know best. I was raised Catholic but married a Lutheran. Our first two children were baptised Catholic, but in their sunday school years expressed a preference for the Lutheran church in our area and I let them go. By the time the third child came along, she was baptized Lutheran. I attened services with them and even volunteered to help with Sunday school classes. My take on the whole thing was that the Lutheran religion was all the same as the Catholic, except for the guilt (a comment the minister found to be quite entertaining).
To some died in the wool Pagans, the Christo-pagan practice may seem to be a watered-down version of the more traditional Pagan beliefs. Then, to some, because of the persecution of Pagan's by Christians, it may seem to be a complete affront against everything Paganism stands for.
The very nature of our belief structure means there are no voluminous texts, like the Bible or the Koran; it is not an organized religion with a designated leader, like the pope or the dali lamma. It lends itself to personal interpretation and bears with that privilege personal accountability.
Even growing up as a Catholic I was very aware of the fact that Jesus's intent was never to start a new religion. According to the Christian mythology, he was the King of the Jews, the Messiah they'd been waiting for. His followers formed a new religion after his persecution and death at the hands of the people we was born to save. They wrote the history many years after his death - perhaps they got some of it wrong - we'll never know. If there are Christo-Pagans who choose to believe that Jesus is a God in their pantheon, who am I, or you, to say it detracts from Paganism as a whole?· elizabeth gallner likes this comment. -
Thursday, 09 August 2012
Kenny,
I see things from a Wiccan viewpoint also, my point is not about a Wiccan view point, but letting go of the discussion of who is and is not Wiccan in your posts on other issues. Your views on the subject are known, it is unrelated the the material you are writing on. If you want to write on BTW vs. electic and why it matters do so, Yet draging it into the other subjects you write on, delutes your message and comes accross as out of focus. -
Saturday, 11 August 2012
Maybe instead of Christo-Pagan those of you who honor Jesus in your Pagan rites might consider the title "Yeshuite-Pagan". It also would be interesting to see how well the Canaanite Recon path could merge with this idea of Yeshua as some sort of prophet. I get this idea from some documentary about Jesus I watched several years ago. It talked about Jewish prophecies about a savior before Jesus was even born. I hope I'm making sense.
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Saturday, 13 October 2012
As a 2nd gen. myself, I feel like I have an even greater disconnect with those who seek to bring Jesus into Paganism. Not that it's bad, theologically speaking, it's just *other*, like two circles that don't intersect.
Though I do think, for the health of the Pagan community, the more we define ourselves based on ourselves, our beliefs, and our Gods and less based on what we are not, less in contrast to other religions, less incorporating other religions' terms and theologies, the healthier we are as a collective group of religions.
In my conversations with others of "my generation", when Christianity comes up, it is as a curiosity, neither friend nor foe... Mostly, we talk about other things, though.
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Sunday, 14 October 2012
I think much depends on whether you are talking about the historical Jesus, or the Christianized Jesus. Where was Jesus for those 12 or so years as a young boy that there is no record? It is purported that he was with the Rabbi's. Some believe he was with the Essenes or with the Jewish mystics. If you separate Jesus's teachings from all of the doctrine that the many Christian religions have ascribed, I think you will find very Pagan beliefs. And what of his miracles? Healing the sick, giving sight to the blind, raising the dead, even turning water into wine. I believe that the historical Jesus was a mystic and prophet - the values he taught fit into my belief systems of harming none, judging none and living in peace with my fellow humans and the environment.
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Just curious where do African Tribal Religions fit into your cosmology/theological categories??Are you saying that Vodoun are pagan?? What about conjure workers and those who practice hoodoo? And for the record if you want to do "hard work" try bridging the gap between pagans and those who only see jesus as a salvic deity and not a teacher or prophet. It is highly unpleasant to be reviled by both groups and in particular the ones who are espousing a desire for tolerance and openess. What about Jewish paganism/magic working or is that also not a clearly enough defined category and not part of what could fit into a polytheistic system thus to be tossed out of the neat tidy categories you seem to see so clearly. This is hurtful. Your gods are" older"...ok you win with the literalist fundamentalist brush on this one. Frankly, you know better and should be more nuanced in your thinking as there are academic historians and theologians who read broadly and the misconceptions and loose categorical statements about history and religion are so fraught with bigotry here it is disheartening. That particular evil cuts both ways.